woodnthings

Sleeper question :
The aluminum twisted wire is from the house feed and a neutral?
This is a 3 wire system and apparently there is not a separate "ground" as you have pointed out. So are you recommending that the neutrals and grounds be all bonded to the panel case and the neutral buss? OR, is the only safe way to replace the feed from the house with a 4 wire? My panels are basically 3 wires and bonded
to the neutral buss. Codes may be different now since when my panels were installed? bill

__________________
Never stand directly in front of a horse or tablesaw that's running!
If you're not making dust, you're gathering it. After I reread my own posts, I agree with myself even more.

Sleeper

All 120/240V subpanels have to have two busses. One is for the ground which is bonded to the panel with either a strap or a screw that goes through the buss into the panel. The other buss, the neutral buss has to be isolated from the panel. The only place that they are together is at the main service panel.
You can bond the neutral buss to the subpanel if it is only used as a 240V panel without a neutral.

__________________
JohnnyB
"I do what I do well, but I still like to dabble in what I don’t do well"

rrbrown

When you wire inside a panel try to keep everything neat. This allows for easy identification of circuits in case of a problem.
You should not twist wires together inside the panel.

Use the proper size wire for each circuit including the feed line.
My main breaker in this box is a 100 amp but it is only used here as a disconnect. The main box has a 60 amp breaker for protection of the circuit. I took this box from my upstairs after hurricane Katrina and the breakers were in it.

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__________________
Semper Fi
Richard

Once A Marine Always A Marine.

Some choose to study history, but Marines choose to create history.

Sleeper

The stuff I work on these days at work is so critical, that we are not allowed to use bare ground wires.

__________________
JohnnyB
"I do what I do well, but I still like to dabble in what I don’t do well"

Sleeper

Bill, I was distracted when I was typing in a reply to you question and didn’t quite finish. I said it the way it’s supposed to be, but as I said before I know there are hundreds of thousands of homes that are wired like this, and it works as long as the ground is connected at some point.
In 1980 I applied for an electrician job at a state prison where I was asked this same question. I answered it truthfully and not by the book. The interview quickly ended and I never got the job.

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JohnnyB
"I do what I do well, but I still like to dabble in what I don’t do well"

rrbrown

Sleeper correct me if I'm wrong here but couldn't a grounding Rod and wire be added at the outside building which would allow for safety of a ground and not having to run a new feed wire. The box would now be a sub panel and the neutral and ground could be bonded at that box.

__________________
Semper Fi
Richard

Once A Marine Always A Marine.

Some choose to study history, but Marines choose to create history.

Sleeper

Yes, but it does have to be separate building or the ground has to tied to the other grounds and the neutral definitely has to be tied to the main panel or you can end up with a floating neutral as Bill was talking about. I’m at home today trying to finish my shed, but I’ll have to check the code book when I go back to work. I haven’t done residential wiring in over 20 years and things have changed a lot. All my stuff these days are for high-tech commutations stuff. Our grounding systems are a whole separate field in itself, because we are not only concerned with personal safety, but also harmonics and random radio transmission noise.

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JohnnyB
"I do what I do well, but I still like to dabble in what I don’t do well"

rrbrown

Sorry I did leave out the obvious The grounds and sub panel would be grounded through the grounding rod. Which would eliminate the need for a new feed wire. ( Provided the feed wire is of the proper gauge for the circuit.)

stupid spell checker keeps replacing gauge with gage. I know how to spell better then the spell checker.

__________________
Semper Fi
Richard

Once A Marine Always A Marine.

Some choose to study history, but Marines choose to create history.

woodnthings

How do you spell: mitergage or miterguage or miter gage or miter guage? bill
BYW all this discussion is interesting but what did happen to Rob and what is the remedy? Should he rewire, add wires, change out the switch etc...

__________________
Never stand directly in front of a horse or tablesaw that's running!
If you're not making dust, you're gathering it. After I reread my own posts, I agree with myself even more.

rrbrown

Its "miter gauge" and its " BTW "

Rob is going to read the post later but he's going to change the switch and hopefully get back to us on the wires, the wire gauge, the ground and what is on the circuit.

__________________
Semper Fi
Richard

Once A Marine Always A Marine.

Some choose to study history, but Marines choose to create history.

Sleeper

I don’t know anything about the switch or where it’s getting its power from. It’s possible that the switch is feed through this panel and there is no real ground, but until we have more info on the switch, there is nothing more to add.
If it were me, I run a new 3wire w/ground feeder. If that is a problem, then I’d at least do like Richard suggested.

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JohnnyB
"I do what I do well, but I still like to dabble in what I don’t do well"

rocklobster

You guys are working overtime for me. That's great. There is so much to respond to, I may miss something. If I miss something important, please remind me.

I'll attach more pics to this response. Also, something Sleeper said made me realize something. The receptacle circuit and switch circuit are not the same. When I plugged in the extension cord for the welder (a heavy duty welder cord that my dad had used for years), there was a loud snap. I thought it was the plug snapping into place. However, now I realize that the GFI that tripped was right above my head at that time. I heard the GFI trip. I only plugged in the cord, not the machine when that happened.

Okay, now that I've opened another can, here's some answers and pics.

I have 200 amps in the main box. I don't know the size of the feed wire to the shop. Other than the 240 that I put in, it was all done by a local but reputable electric company. I added the 240 thinking that I could use it for my welder if I didn't run anything else. The DC that I ordered is 220 1ph and draws only10 or 12 amps, so I thought I'd be okay there.

Everything has worked fine since I put it in until I tried to use it. Once I pulled the cord back out, it's fine again. I'm positive that I did get shocked when I flipped that switch and the extension cord was plugged in, though, but the GFI must have tripped before that.

School just started back up and I'm super busy. Probably won't get back out to mess with anything until Friday or Saturday. Here's the pics:

Rob

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Sleeper

Ok, I see now that you are short a ground wire. I think the local electrician may have burned you. It is possible that the electrical connection in the welder receptacle may be loose or there is a short in the extension cord and without a proper ground, the current tried to back feed through the switch.
You have 4 circuits (3 – 20Amp 120 volt circuits and 1 – 50Amp 240 volt 2 wire circuit )
This gives you 3 white #12 and 3 #12 bare grounds and 1 #6 bare ground. I’m not including the hot wires.
The subpanel feeder should have 2 hot wires (line 1 & 2), 1 white common and 1 ground. You do not have an insulated common and the feeder ground is being used as a common.
You only have two choices, either connect a ground up like Richard suggested or run a new feeder.
Oh, you also need to check out the cord for the welder.

__________________
JohnnyB
"I do what I do well, but I still like to dabble in what I don’t do well"

rrbrown

OK Rob, I can't argue with sleeper especially since he agrees with my earlier post. I would like to add a few things. I think the grounding rod put at the building would work. However I'm not crazy about the feed ground being used as a common. I do think that electrician took advantage by doing that kind of a job and for using aluminum wire. How long ago was this feed wire done ? Read this


How much wire is used in the feeder and is it buried or in conduit ?

If the feeder length is over 100 feet you should go up one gauge size to allow for current drop. Even more so if it is where it can not dissipate heat easily.

I'm not sure how large the building is or what type of saws etc but you have little room to grow. Your DC is going to say run it on a 20 amp 220 circuit. If you try to use that 50 amp and something happens the breaker will never trip if needed.

So now you need to add a 20 amp 220 for the DC and maybe have room to run another one for a table saw if needed.

The panel I posted the pictures of is on a 60 amp main breaker like yours but I have allot more circuits for use.

Not sure if you have anymore room for more circuits in that panel but I would think about it, even if it's for in the future.


Ok Rob this is my opinion and it is what I would do if possible.

I would replace the Feeder with (copper wire) AWG 6 gauge 3 wire + ground for the feeder. Use AWG 4 if the feeder run is over 100 feet and or in conduit.

I would make sure that your current panel can handle at least 2 more 220v breakers or plan on getting a new one with more room. There will be no need for the grounding rod if you run the new feeder listed above.

If you plan on using that welder of yours and it truly draws 50 amps you may want to opt for the AWG 4 feeder or get a smaller welder.

Hey sorry if this isn't the advice you wanted but like I said this is what I would do. No sense in me telling you to do something I wouldn't do.

You can do this yourself with a little advise but if not get a different electrician this time.

__________________
Semper Fi
Richard

Once A Marine Always A Marine.

Some choose to study history, but Marines choose to create history.

woodnthings

So, I don't think I can add anything more here, except I'd like to know more about that extension cord and does it have metal connectors or plastic. If metal redo it with plastic ones. I'd look at the connections making certaian the wire colors stay the same from plug to receptacle. The idea was posted for your dust collector to add an additional 20 amp circuit and that's exactlly what I'd do. Keep the welder on the 50 amp. The other idea is now that you are a "qualified" amateur electrician change out that panel for a 60 amp with more slots. The other other idea is to change out that panel for a 100 amp with even more slots. That's what I have done off my 200 amp main. I have 2 -100 amp subs off my main. But if there is any doubt in your mind after all this, please get a qualified electricanl to either do the work, or check out and repair what you have. The next step beyond a "shock" is even more disaterous. bill

__________________
Never stand directly in front of a horse or tablesaw that's running!
If you're not making dust, you're gathering it. After I reread my own posts, I agree with myself even more.

rocklobster

You guys have all done me well with the advice and things to consider. I think I'll end up putting the grounding rod at the building for the sake of time and money. The current feeder is about 60' or so and half of that is buried in conduit.

It was done only two years ago. I realize that aluminum was not a good choice but, fortunately, all of the wiring inside the shop is copper, and I think the real danger of aluminum is where it's connected to the various devices.

I'll check that extension cord out this weekend, Bill. I'll be looking into how to install this grounding rod and may be back with questions if I have a problem.

My dust collector motor just came in the mail today. I plan to install a separate 20 amp 240 outlet for it (which works out for me really, because the 50 amp one was in a good place for the welder but not the DC.)

Thanks again, guys. You saved me time, money, and probably a lot more.

Rob

woodnthings

The coolest way to install a grounding rod is to use an electric break-up hammer, like a Bosch and drive the rod down into the ground with the hammer action. Takes less than 5 minutes to go 6' if no obstructions. I watched it done and was impressed. bill

__________________
Never stand directly in front of a horse or tablesaw that's running!
If you're not making dust, you're gathering it. After I reread my own posts, I agree with myself even more.

whirichardson

Your first post you mentioned effects from no having your eye shield properly adjusted. I worked at a large turbine company in the pipe dept for a while and learned that you protect your eyes from that light always. It only takes a few exposures to damage your eyes. My older son welds and he learned that almost too late. Always safety first.