Sears Craftsman 10" flex drive table saw - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum

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post #1 of 32 Old 02-23-2008, 10:26 PM Thread Starter
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Sears Craftsman 10" flex drive table saw

Can anyone tell me about this saw? Someone I know is selling it for $75, is it worth it? I have know idea what a flex drive is?
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post #2 of 32 Old 02-23-2008, 10:51 PM
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I've used one owned by a friend. They're not bad - not great, but not bad. A flex drive is a flexible shaft coming out of the end of the motor and bending around to the arbor. If it still runs smoothly and the flex shaft hasn't started unraveling, it's definately worth $75. Although, I seem to remember that my friend's saw had a crap fence.
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post #3 of 32 Old 02-23-2008, 11:12 PM Thread Starter
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Can it be converted to belt drive?
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post #4 of 32 Old 02-23-2008, 11:23 PM
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Not sure. It was years ago and I can't remember where or how the motor was positioned on the frame. And the shaft coming out the end of the motor may not be easily adapted to use a pulley. Then again, it may be more trouble than it's worth to convert it. You'd have to get a look at it to judge for yourself, unless others on this forum have specific experience with this machine.
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post #5 of 32 Old 02-23-2008, 11:49 PM
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Odds are good that the 1-1/16hp motor is worth the $75 price. Wings, handwheels, leg stand, miter guage, insert, blade guard, etc., all add even more value in parts, so it's a safe investment.

I've looked over a flex drive saw but never used one. Rumblings on the street indicate that it's not highly regarded. The motor can be converted to standard pulleys, but I don't know what'd be involved with converting the arbor. I suppose it might be possible to just replace the trunnions/guts with a those from a standard Craftsman contractor saw from around that era, but I really don't know what it'd take.
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post #6 of 32 Old 02-25-2008, 10:56 PM
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I have an animal like that and the fence is not good. I did some checking and the flex shaft can still be gotten, $75-80. It really isn't a bad saw it just isn't a good saw. It would work for a once in a while person, but not a 3hr or more a week user. The main reason being the cheeaap fence. Mine also has a small amount of side to side movenemt in the arbor.
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post #7 of 32 Old 08-29-2008, 02:09 PM
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I bought mine new about 25 years ago. Never
have been happy with the wobble in the arbor.
Had to replace the flex drive once, about $80,
shortly after replacing the motor (new after-
market motor has mucho torque, I suspect the
new flex drive won't hold up very long). I would
like to convert it to belt drive. A neighbor has
a belt-drive model that appears to be the same
basic saw, except for the drive. Perhaps there
are some inter-changable parts...
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post #8 of 32 Old 06-12-2009, 04:25 PM
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It would be nice to find an aftermarket supplier of the shafts. Sears is outragous $$$$. The motor is not reversible on mine, so it uses are limited. You're better off parting it out. Sell the extensions. The top can be used as an extension. The cabinet and legs can be use as a base for two or three grinders or a router table. Some of the guts might be able to be used on another Emersion-made Cman saw.

St. Louis, MO
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post #9 of 32 Old 06-12-2009, 11:41 PM
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I have had one of the flex drive table saws for over 25 years. It is still running and never had any problems with fence alignment, although it is not too god, is not one of the horrible ones with a turn handle, but has a lever-push down with a small T. I got used to tap the fence before locking it and seems to lock true. I have not replaced a single part of this saw. Not even a belt The only parts that I have considered changing recently are the four leveling bolts at the bottom of the legs because the rubber shoes are worn out.

It does not have a lot of power, but recently I have been ripping 2x6 studs with no problem with careful feed.

After two moves across the country, and one year somewhere in storage, has started to vibrate the flex for a couple of seconds at statup, but once up to speed it runs fine. It may need some grease, and it is over 25 years old.

For what it is, I have worked it hard over the years and has served me well. Currently I am planning to replace it, probably with a hybrid.

For $75, if it is in good shape and is the one with the two cast wing extensions, it may not be a bad deal, depending on what you are trying to do. If you are testing the woodworking waters on a limited budget and don't plan on ripping thick hardwood, it may fit your needs for a few years.. but you probably would want to try it.

Does it come with a couple of good blades / dado ?
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post #10 of 32 Old 07-01-2009, 07:07 PM
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Since my last post on this thread, I re-aligned the
blade & the rip fence, did some careful machining
on the arbor and installed a Woodworker II blade.
It cuts much, much better now. Just wonder how
long the drive cable will last with the new Dayton
motor that I am using on it...
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post #11 of 32 Old 10-06-2009, 12:49 PM
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Sears Flex drive conversion

I'm new here, first post. But I've been involved for several weeks on a project to convert a Sears 10-inch Flex Drive table saw to a belt drive unit. This saw was free, given to me, by a friend. I'm retired, and not a wealthy person, so this seemed to represent a great gain in my newbie woodworking equipment. Until now I've only had a small 99-dollar Ryobi or Delta direct-drive portable. Retrieved from a falling-down (literally) old barn, where it had sat for years, with an enormous cast iron table, looking like a much greater precision saw than I have, I thought the gift would be worth 'renewing' it, fixing it up--building a bit of 'sweat equity' in it.

Because of the effort I've given this, and the stuff I've learned, and the dearth of information elsewhere, some seemingly conflicting information I've seen, I thought I'd offer what I've learned. Please note: ALL of what follows is based on my opinions, estimates, and evaluations. I'm something of a knowledgeable machine designer/engineer, (strong emphasis on the 'something') so the following is based largely on observation and personal estimate of what is or is not; and not on hard engineering calculations. I'm also reasonably competent in Autocad and have done many design drawings in the process, attempting to figure out the 'best way' to do the project.

First, to do this 'right', solidly, is for anyone a very daunting job. Any comparison with the other Sears belt driven 10 inch saws from the same era (about 1995-97), or discussion of parts interchangeability is next to useless, simply not relevant. They are totally different designs, and mechanisms, internally.

I've spoken with an individual who worked directly under the original designer of this Flex Cable drive. The company was Elliot who made the drive cable. According to him, the original design was excellent, worked very well. But, apparently, when the saw was put into production for the market, Sears, others, may have decided the original design was just too complicated and expensive ... so they changed a 'few' things. And thereby probably did great 'damage' to the original design. Hence the reputation in some circles that the saw was badly executed in production.

The flex cable, according to design limitation specifications (7/16th core diam) was 1) possibly borderline for the energy transfer required, and 2) was definitely flexed to the minimum limit of the cable; something less than 10 inches radius. Again, something that contributed to the many failures, and returned purchases Sears experienced.

As to the conversion possibilities: The internal arbor and blade carriage in these saws is an aluminum casting, NOT cast iron or steel, as in the belt driven saw. I've seen, taken many photos, studied the belt driven saw and the difference in the two saws is huge. There are massive cast or forged trunnions supporting the entire carriage--and the motor. This is a critical/crucial point. In the flex drive unit, there are two 1/2 inch steel rods with (I'm guessing) two #10 screws on either end (4 total) supporting the blade carriage and arbor--but NOT the motor. It is rigidly mounted to, and supported by the external cabinet enclosure of the saw. Any conversion will require that the added steel structure/support for the motor and the weight of the motor not be hung from those half-inch shafts and those four small screws. And the structure to support and pivot the motor should be very rigid/sturdy/heavy(!) to prevent torquing of the motor under startup and working loads. Note also that that lightweight cast aluminum carriage and the depth/bevel adjustment as well as the arbor housing itself were never meant to tolerate side loading/pull ... as from a belt driving from one side. I have no idea even now, if it will hold up under the side-load caused by a belt arrangement. This, by the way, is, I'm sure, one of the reasons for the tremendous difference in the steel/iron carriage frame structure in the belt-driven model, and the much lighter, simpler aluminum and screw design for the flex drive. The power transfer in the flex drive is ONLY axial ... in line with the arbor ... and not from the side as with a belt and pulley arrangement.

The result of this is that in any re-design/conversion of the saw to belt drive will require one of two concepts ... either a belt drive that can drive with severely misaligned sheaves, or the motor has to be mounted on its own frame, but somehow attached to the blade and arbor carriage to accurately follow the operator set bevel angle. Note, by the way, that the CCW rotation of the motor is reversed by the original flex drive cable to correctly rotate the saw blade. A belt drive will require now, that the motor be hung on the opposite side of the carriage/blade, to maintain correct blade rotation (CW) and this will also increase the moment/loading moment caused by the weight of the motor, which only further complicates the design of the motor mount, and increases the structural requirements (steel sizes/weight) for mounting the motor.

At present I'm following and working on a concept to hang the motor from a 5/8th shaft bolted to the rear apron of the cast iron table. But the motor 1) must be allowed to 'float' to compensate for belt tension and 2) must be supported NOT by any part of that cast aluminum saw carriage. Not sure if I can make it work. But will keep you informed ... if anyone is still interested.

I thought I had a neat solution to most of the problems by simply returning to the fixed motor attachment (though with the motor set at least two feet away from the cabinet) by using round endless poly-reinforced belting. This belting can often run reasonably well, though with some transmission losses, with badly misaligned sheaves. Then, two days ago, a distributor informed me that NO one in the U.S. is still carrying round belts, and that it can only be purchased from some outfit in Japan. Sounded crazy ... but if true ... there goes that idea ... even if it might have worked.

Soo... enough. I have been wanting to communicate with others about this and appreciate the opportunity. And hope that I might save someone a bit of repetitive effort. Glad to share.

I have a number of hi-res photos of both saw internal mechanisms, illustrating the different mechanisms and can provide if anyone is interested. The saws are similar only in external appearance.

Grey
(Added thoughts: In response to a couple of (much) earlier posts in the thread:

One poster mentioned exchanging parts with the belt driven models. That is probably not easily done either. Reason: the underside of the cast iron tables are designed with specific boss locations for attaching trunnions, frames, enclosure/cabinet. These are cast into the bottomside of the tables, then drilled and tapped to receive the bolts to attach the various components/sub-assemblies. The castings for belt driven models are very different from those of the flex-drive unit. The boss pattern is very different. Hence, one could not take the 'guts' from a belt-driven model and transfer that to the flex-drive model, and simply bolt it in place. In fact, amazingly, I doubt any of the parts are interchangeable between the two saw models.

One caveat: The two saws I have compared have different horsepower motors. The flex drive, as someone pointed out, is a 1-1/16th (?) horsepower motor. The belt drive model I have studied has a 3 horsepower motor. That could account for the major structural differences in these two particular saws. It is possible there is a one horsepower belt driven model that is much closer in internal design than the one I have worked with.

One questioner asked about what a 'flex-drive' is? I've explained it to many by saying that it's identical in concept to the old, mechanical speedometer cables that were used on cars back in the fifties/sixties. A spiral-wound, flexible steel 'shaft', that spins/is turned inside an outer protective sheath. They're also most commonly used today, I think, on 'Weedeater' lawn trimming tools. They need to be lubricated regularly, and are or tend to be inherently weak in the real world for transmitting torque. They can tend to vibrate, unless designed and installed correctly, can be 'springy' in response as well. Note that they are generally not repairable, and unlike belts, tend to be very costly to replace.

Another point: Another poster mentioned the flex-drive itself. Believe me, I've checked and the Sears price at about 80 bucks, is not unreasonable--IF you can actually find one any longer. I've checked with the Sears Parts website, and they show almost no parts still available for this saw other than nuts and bolts. Also, instead of attempting to change it to a belt drive model, I've looked into going back to the flex drive system, using a much newer, more readily available third-party flex cable, up-sizing the flex drive cable to at least a half-inch cable, and buying one at least a couple of feet longer in order to greatly increase the bend radius in the cable. This would increase power and torque at the arbor, and probably increase the smoothness, lack of vibration at the blade. Would also absolutely install a soft-start on the motor to reduce the huge startup torque spike/shock-load from the motor. But, all of this would cost something in the range of three to four hundred dollars (284 for the new cable and another 80 for the soft-start) And that doesn't include another hundred or so, probably, for remaking, creating, a new arbor shaft to accept a 5/8th inch, keyed pulley or new, larger flex cable. The original arbor has an integral, puny-looking press/formed square hollow to accept that little drive cable end, and is too short to just cut if off and add a sheave.

Last edited by Greyeagle; 10-10-2009 at 10:56 PM. Reason: editorial
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post #12 of 32 Old 10-07-2009, 08:45 AM
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Wow! That is the most impressive analysis !
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post #13 of 32 Old 10-07-2009, 10:24 AM
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flex drive guts

I still have some of the "guts" from a flex drive. If anyone needs them, they are free plus S&H from 63129.

St. Louis, MO
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post #14 of 32 Old 10-07-2009, 11:50 AM
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Converting Flex to Belt drives

Thanks, Rdy2go. I appreciate it.

I noticed that you appear to be one of the few who've found this saw 'workable'. And that you cut 2x6s with it. One respondent, another website, said he broke the drive cable every time he attempted to cut anything over an inch in thickness, had replaced under warranty one drive cable, broke that one shortly after, replaced it again, under warranty, then promptly sheared another one. Upon which event, he returned the saw and exchanged it for a new one. He then very soon after that broke yet another flex drive. At that point he returned the saw and got his money back. All this within three weeks of purchasing the first saw! Surely an extreme example, but from many posts I've read, reviews, it may explain why Sears only sold these saws for a short time--as saw marketing goes.

I've pretty well, sadly, reached the point another poster had reached. It just isn't practical, isn't worth the struggle, guys. It's one of the first Craftsman tools I've personally encountered, that really is bad. And I've always had a lot of faith in Craftsman tools for everyday use. Maybe not professional level, but useful, reliable, and affordable. This was/is a surprise.

Thanks again, Rdy...
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post #15 of 32 Old 10-08-2009, 09:44 AM
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I used mine last week to rip 3/4" oak and I have cut maple (with patience) in the past. Do you have yours at a usable point or is it not in working condition? If not, I agree with you, I would not put money to it and just wait for a low cost opportunity in the used market.

I have plans to replace mine, in part because I want something better, in part because I want a new toy, but I will keep using it until then.

The only thing that needs attention in my saw are the adjustable legs bolts that over time have punched thru the rubber sole.

Looking at your
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post #16 of 32 Old 10-08-2009, 09:15 PM
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Rdy2go:

No ... the saw is disassembled into many parts at present. I'm waiting on the arbor to come back from the shop after being remade with a standard 5/8" diam., keyed end instead of the original formed square end, but feel now that was a premature move.

So, yes, unfortunately, considering the time I've already invested, and the time and machining estimate I have for further development of the conversion, as well as the questionable, even doubtful success/quality of the final product ... I now plan on giving up on it, unless I happen to stumble onto some unexpected discovery or can invent some magical way of doing it with less effort.

Since my original post here, I read another post elsewhere that mentioned a 'bit' of looseness in the arbor adjustment, which is nothing more than two smooth aluminum working faces pinned together under lateral pressure. If the mechanism will loosen under just normal use, at all, then certainly loading it significantly from one side with a belt pulley and belt tension, is almost sure to make that worse; i.e.--further decrease the accuracy of the saw.

By the way, rdy2go, I want to assure you that I am in no way questioning your fortune and luck in having one of these saws that is working well for you. I wish this one worked as well as yours! I'd be using it ... happily. My thought here was simply to convey what I'd learned with the hope that it will help others avoid either purchasing one of them, and/or thinking that converting it might not be so difficult. It IS a very difficult project, at best, at least for me. And please, certainly, if anyone has managed this easily and the saw is working well, I'd love to know how it was done. Not so much detail of your idea is required, just a direction to investigate. Again, I can provide detailed closeup images of the specific problem areas I'm aware of, if needed.

It still upsets me to see such a potentially great tool so crippled as to be virtually unsalvageable, both economically as well as mechanically. After a quick, initial look-see, I had really thought I would have an almost like-new, refurbished, shiny, heavy duty saw working for me by now, and am disappointed, to say the least that it will not likely happen. It CAN be done ... but will just be as costly as purchasing a new, much better designed table saw, with a better fence too. If someone has access to their own machine shop, and unlimited materials access, it would be much easier. Otherwise, I don't think so.

Kindest ... Grey

Last edited by Greyeagle; 10-08-2009 at 09:27 PM. Reason: Editorial only
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post #17 of 32 Old 10-08-2009, 09:25 PM
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You sound like a humble soul

Admitting that you've made an error is good. My suggestion is at this point to use the table, assuming it is the cast iron 27" by 40" wide as an extension side to a standard contractor saw which are available on Craigs list for between $200 and $100 if you search. Myself I've used 2 tables and 2 saws all bolted together to form a twin engined 84" span table saw. You can't have a table saw that's too wide! bill

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Last edited by woodnthings; 10-09-2009 at 04:56 AM.
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post #18 of 32 Old 10-09-2009, 01:16 AM
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Bill:

Now that's an impressive table saw! Twin-engined? Sheesh. I've flown twins, but never run a twin tablesaw!

Yep ... the conversion attempt was a mistake, but at least I've learned a great deal about what makes a good tablesaw. (One reason for all this work on getting a tablesaw is that I've recently 'acquired' what I think is a gorgeous shop building ... 14x30, no interior columns. More shop space than I'd ever dreamed of owning.)

One question, by the way, I still wonder about, is what, generally, would be a preference between a fixed/direct drive saw, and a belt-driven one? Which seems to be the design used in the more expensive saws? I've been told that belt drive is "best", but that may be a matter of personal opinion.

I would reciprocate your photo, but I don't want CA falling into the ocean from the reverberations of your laughter.

As to your suggestions ... re: salvaging table parts from the flex drive for other saws. Absolutely ... already thought about that ... and given the chance, plan to do exactly that. The table is cast iron (that thing is so heavy, I can't pick it up without help) and has extensions, I believe on both sides, as well as a reasonably decent, basic fence (at least, it's a heck of a lot better than the silly excuse I use for one now.) And, yes, it's 44 x 27, open web, 'exact-i-cut', whatever that is, with front and rear angles for the fence attachment. Not the Biesemeyer (sp) for sure, but again, much better than I have now.

I may be able to obtain a three-hp, belt-driven version of the same saw, probably for no more than 150, possibly, just a hundred. I've studied this saw and it is much, much better in design and construction than this flex drive thing. Far cry from a thousand or two thousand dollar professional saw, but I'd love to own it. I can definitely transfer the table extensions, at the least, to this saw if I can get it. Just waiting to see if the current owner will part with it. And, yes, have started watching Craigslist locally for possibilities there too. Thanks for the suggestions.

Enjoyed your post ...
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post #19 of 32 Old 10-09-2009, 05:08 AM
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A belt drive saw is better

The arbor of a direct drive saw is actaully the motor armature and generally the bearings are not as stout as would be if the arbor is a separate unit. It is also more easily serviced in the event that a bearing fails. The heavy duty saws use up to 3 belts to transmit power to the arbor. The new hybrids use a flat multi v belt about 3/4" wide or so. Both work great. FWI there are cast iron router extensions for the 27" deep saws that allow the use of a router and the table saw in the same footprint, if space is an issue. Cost is about $ 225.00 for the table ony, no router. I bought one thinking I would add it on to the twin engine, but then made a separate stand for it after thinking it over. Your new shop will be a great place to work, good for you! Don't scrimp on your table saw since it is the heart of the shop and any frustration with it will be reflected in the quality of your work and the amount of satisfaction you get from it. Just my advice. bill

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Last edited by woodnthings; 10-09-2009 at 05:13 AM.
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post #20 of 32 Old 10-09-2009, 11:04 AM
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Cman saws

Iv'e had my belt-drive Cman saw since 1973 and have upgraded it to the point that I don't feel cheated by not haveing a bigger/better saw. I salvaged an additional top, a Delta Unifence, Brett Guard, and a Baldor 1.5 hp motor to do my upgrades over the years. I am limited on space so I opted for the 32" version of the Unifence. It will actually allow for 36" of cut to the right of the blade with a little adjustment. The newer version of the front bar shown it Woodnthings' picture is the easiest to install. The motor was the only new item, and that was over 30 years ago. The saw hasn't seen a lot of action for most of those years, but it's nice to have a decent saw to use when needed. Even with all of the upgrades it has probably costed less than $20 per year to own the saw. With the cutting of Industrial Arts (Shop) programs all over the US I would watch for school auction also. The older Unisaws are almost indestructible and are easy to rebuild. The guys on OWWM.org can take you through it step by step. They are also a good source for used parts. Cabinet saws take up a little less room because they don't have the motor hanging off of the back.

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