SawStop - that's no hotdog - Woodworking Talk

clarionflyer · 10-07-2009, 05:35 PM

I'm sure a lot of you have seen this, but I hadn't till now. The president actually sticks his finger in there.
I'm normally not squeamish at all, but watching this gives me the chillies.

Last 2 minutes...

woodnthings · 10-07-2009, 05:42 PM

However, there's a reason the first rule of gun safety is: never point a gun at anything you don't want destroyed or anyone you don't intend to shoot, keep it pointed in a safe direction. Safeties, unloaded and all things considered. You are trusting the safety device in the case of the saw and things can go wrong.
Chances are they won't statistically, but you might develop a false sense of security thinking no matter what I do, even carelessly, my Saw Stop will protect me. The first case where it doesn't will be the lawsuit of the century!

bill

frostr2001 · 10-07-2009, 06:34 PM

As I recall he also wet his finger before he did??? Did anyone else see this or am I wrong?

frostr2001 · 10-07-2009, 06:38 PM

My point was that I do not usually wet my hands befor I saw a board. So.. is this a good live test ???

jraksdhs · 10-07-2009, 07:28 PM

acually he has his hand in an ice bath to numb his hand. That draws the blood out of his hand incase he gets cut, which has be known to happen. That is truely an incredible saw. Two Thumbs up from me!

jraks

Gorp · 10-07-2009, 08:41 PM

My two cents.

To me Sawstop feels cheap compared to the new Delta Unisaw. The saw does not have a cast iron base like most other cabinet saws in its class and there are to many other shortcuts that makes this saw feel cheap. The Sawstop is made in Taiwan, the blade it comes with is made in China and the only USA made part is the brake system. I think Sawstop is a good idea and I would have bought one if the quality was better and made in the USA.

There is already one accident where the blade launched its carbide teeth into a workers forehead. I guess the company would rather make more money outsourcing the saw plus parts and saving fingers then preventing brain damage.

I don’t mean to insult any Sawstop owners as I think it is a great idea. The people that make it is what I have a problem with. I would have bought one if it was made in the USA and the quality of the parts where better.

Skidooman93 · 10-08-2009, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gorp

My two cents.

To me Sawstop feels cheap compared to the new Delta Unisaw. The saw does not have a cast iron base like most other cabinet saws in its class and there are to many other shortcuts that makes this saw feel cheap. The Sawstop is made in Taiwan, the blade it comes with is made in China and the only USA made part is the brake system. I think Sawstop is a good idea and I would have bought one if the quality was better and made in the USA.

There is already one accident where the blade launched its carbide teeth into a workers forehead. I guess the company would rather make more money outsourcing the saw plus parts and saving fingers then preventing brain damage.

I don’t mean to insult any Sawstop owners as I think it is a great idea. The people that make it is what I have a problem with. I would have bought one if it was made in the USA and the quality of the parts where better.

I think you are the 1st person I have ever heard that says sawstop seems or feels cheap. Sawstops have always been praised for their exceptional quality, fit and finish, and saftey. I don't know if you looked at the same saws that I have. But I think the complete oposite. The new delta seems to be cheaper made. Look at the bevels on the table compared to the extension tables, they aren't the same. The paint on the cabient flakes off easily, the 1st delta I saw was missing pant near the bottom of the cabinet. Those are things I have never seen on a sawstop. I wish the sawstop was made in the us, but just because it isn't doesn't mean it is lower quality. It all comes down to what is requested from the plant, what kind of materials and engineering. Just because the majority of delta's parts are made in the us and the saw is assembled here doesn't make it better. I take pride in american jobs and manufactuing but we have made lots and lots of crap over the years as well. Look at the parts supplied to many of the automakers.

niki · 10-08-2009, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frostr2001

As I recall he also wet his finger before he did??? Did anyone else see this or am I wrong?

Hi Bob

Indeed he did...

I've read it on another forum - explained by Mr Steve Gass himself that...

Because they were using a very high speed cameras, they needed also a very strong light that would burn his finger if not cooled before in iced water...

As for the SS itself, I think that it's very good saw and the safety feature makes it even better.....the big irony is that those who need it the most - beginners and amateurs - cannot buy it...just look at the "Table saw advise" posts and you'll get the "numbers" how much they can/want to spend...

As for me, nah, I'll continue with the blade guard feather board and long push sticks to keep my hands "far, far and away" from the "butcher"...

Regards
niki

adpanko · 10-09-2009, 02:44 PM

I would just like to chime in on a few comments made here. I have owned the SawStop contractor model (with all of the available upgrades) since March, and I absolutely love it.

With regards to the poster who said the quality is poor: I have to respectfully disagree. I have yet to see any professional trade reviews of a SawStop product that doesn't say the quality is second to none. And I can attest to that. The heft, fit/finish and factory precision are all amazing...more so than any other contractor saw I've seen. The only slighly suprising area where they cheaped out on was the hand wheels to raise and tilt the blade. They are a dense plastic I think, definitely not a solid metal. But functionally, they work great, so it doesn't bother me. I'm not saying there aren't some one-off stories of some problem occurring that may be attributed to quality, but that is the story with virtually every product on the planet. As a whole, SawStop quality is great. Can small things be made better here and there? Sure, but are such impreovements necessary or will they add any more value??? I can't really see how.

There was a review/comparison of SawStop vs the new Unisaw in one of this month's woodworking magazines that just came out (I don't remember which one; I get WoodCraft, Wood, Popular Woodworking and Fine Woodwoking and they all came within a few days of each other last week). The Unisaw was actually reviewed as having slighly better quality than SawStop, but in areas that I don't personally think matter that much. For example, the SawStop outfeed table is basically made with a wooden frame that has a laminated top. The UniSaw was built much beefier. But neither table is big enough to be an assembly table, so extra heft and beef isn't warranted in my opinion (this is an example of where SawStop quality could improve, but wouldn't really add any value)

To the poster who said a blade brake gives a false sense of security. That is up to the user. Does a retractable blade cover on a circular saw make you more careless when using it? Does wearing eye protection mean you fire off pneumatic nails or use a grinder carelessly because your eyes are protected? If a user is going to throw his hands around willy nilly around a moving table saw blade because he feels that he won't get seriously harmed because of a brake mechanism, then that person is foolish and shouldnt' be around power tools anyway. I think the overwhelming majority of woodworkers have a tremendous amount of respect and a healthy amount of fear toward tools, and adding on additional safety features won't lead them to foolishly drop their guard.

Anyway, SawStop products are of great quality by any standards. I don't care that it was built in Taiwan, so long as it is a good product, and it is. Its features and functionality are on par with any other top of the line saw. The brake mechanism is what obviously really sets it apart. The saws are expensive as hell, but in the event that I ever mistakenly touch my flesh to the blade, it will be well worth it to have a greatly reduced chance of amputation or other catastrophic damage.

Gorp · 10-09-2009, 03:51 PM

Regarding the Sawstop I should have said some of the engineering and parts are not what I would expect from a saw with a big price tag.

http://www.hanford.gov/rl/uploadfile...L-HNF-0043.pdf

Here is just one of the resins I question the company.

I also almost bought the Sawstop but held back after I heard there Sawstop triggerd without cause trashing a dato blade durring a class.

Regardless of what saw anyone has I will say happy cutting and be safe.

adpanko · 10-09-2009, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gorp

Regarding the Sawstop I should have said some of the engineering and parts are not what I would expect from a saw with a big price tag.

http://www.hanford.gov/rl/uploadfile...L-HNF-0043.pdf

Here is just one of the resins I question the company.

I agree, the blade that comes with the saws is average at best. I made a couple of test cuts with it, saw that it produced inferior results compared to my Forrest WWII, so I swapped it out and put on my WWII full-time. Honestly, it would be nice if SawStop gave a high quality blade of Forrest caliber with each saw since the price tag is so high, but the quality of the blade and the quality of the saw shouldn't really be considered in the same analysis. I think mostly all woodworkers consider blades tools in and of themselves in terms of characteristics and quality, so regardless what saw they might have, they most likely use their own preference of blade. The cheap blade that SawStop gives is a nice little added extra, but shouldn't really be considered as its primary use blade. I use the SawStop blade for cutting crappy wood or wet stuff.

jdp8402 · 10-13-2009, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woodnthings

However, there's a reason the first rule of gun safety is: never point a gun at anything you don't want destroyed or anyone you don't intend to shoot, keep it pointed in a safe direction. Safeties, unloaded and all things considered. You are trusting the safety device in the case of the saw and things can go wrong.
Chances are they won't statistically, but you might develop a false sense of security thinking no matter what I do, even carelessly, my Saw Stop will protect me. The first case where it doesn't will be the lawsuit of the century!

bill

There is no guarantee that it will work every time. The company can't guarantee that. They would be idiots if they did guarantee that. If for some freak reason it doesn't stop, I highly doubt anyone would win in a lawsuit against them. Thats just like trying to smash a car into a brick wall at 50mph and you get hurt, can you sue the car company. NO. Anywanys it should never have to be used, you should always practice shop safety. Dont let your gaurd down just cause you have a saw that claims to save fingers. I hope it does work everytime but never rely on it.

rrich · 10-13-2009, 09:35 PM

I've "looked" at a SS at Woodcraft. For a table saw it is just that, a table saw. Is there anything bad about it? I don't think so.

I only have a single issue with SS. The issue is the brake cartridge. There is no second source. What are you going to do if the cost of the cartridge goes to $300 or $500? I considered the SS when I bought my Unisaw. The deciding factor for me was no right tilt was available at SS.

HOWEVER I do have a Saw Stop part on my Unisaw. The SS has a magnifying cursor that fits my Biesemeyer fence. So, I guess, according to Delta, that's blasphemy.

jdp8402 · 10-14-2009, 02:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rrich

I've "looked" at a SS at Woodcraft. For a table saw it is just that, a table saw. Is there anything bad about it? I don't think so.

I only have a single issue with SS. The issue is the brake cartridge. There is no second source. What are you going to do if the cost of the cartridge goes to $300 or $500? I considered the SS when I bought my Unisaw. The deciding factor for me was no right tilt was available at SS.

HOWEVER I do have a Saw Stop part on my Unisaw. The SS has a magnifying cursor that fits my Biesemeyer fence. So, I guess, according to Delta, that's blasphemy.

How do you put a price on your fingers?

adpanko · 10-14-2009, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rrich

I only have a single issue with SS. The issue is the brake cartridge. There is no second source. What are you going to do if the cost of the cartridge goes to $300 or $500? I considered the SS when I bought my Unisaw. The deciding factor for me was no right tilt was available at SS.

True, they have a monopoly on their brake cartridges. But the demand for that product is quite elastic in that people will buy less if the price increases. If they priced their brakes at $1,000 a piece, hardly anyone would buy a SawStop. If they gave the brakes away for free, more people would buy SawStops than they do now. I'm sure the company strategically priced the brakes at a level that they though would maximize sales and profits without unduly turning people away because they are too expensive. Therefore, I don't think they'll ever charge a few hundred dollars for the brakes because their sales would drop noticeably. Granted, there is nothing stopping them from attempting to do so, but basic laws of supply and demand surely set their pricing strategy. Just my two cents.

Skidooman93 · 10-14-2009, 10:09 PM

If for some reason Sawstop ever went under and the brakes were impossible to come by, or if the price of brakes goes up to high. It will be very easy to convert my saw to a uni saw. Buy a swich, run power to it, and send wires to the motor. How hard is that. Then I have a UNI! Buy why would I want one of those?

rrich · 10-15-2009, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdp8402

How do you put a price on your fingers?

Quite simply, It's called proper and safe technique.

Think of it this way...

You don't depend upon the "safety" on a gun to make the gun safe.

For everyone else...

I actually read the Sawstop filing with CPSC. (or maybe FTC) I don't know if the document is still available on the web. It was an attepmt to make their device mandatory on all table saws in this country. Not a bad idea until you realize that they would have a monoply on the system and the filing was, IMO, one of the most misleading documents that I've ever read. One of the pictures seemed to me to be a shaper accident and not a table saw accident.

It may seem stupid, but DON'T put your fingers into a rotating cutting device. Actually better advice is, if you are closer than as Shaka to the cutter, STOP and change your technique.

Vicki · 10-19-2009, 12:45 AM

I'm an apprentice carpenter and have personally set off a saw stop once, and was 5 feet away another time it was set off. I got some cool pics!

I believe my fellow student had done something stupid (touched the blade with the miter?) that set it off. I guess I did too. In our shop we had 3 table saws, only one of which had room to rip full sheets. I ran through OSB that had been sitting out in the rain. Interesting part is, the first sheet went through without incident, it was the second sheet that set off the brake. Perhaps my fingers were closer the second time and conducted the electrical charge to the blade.

And BTW, as far as quality, the sawstop table is always the first one of the three in use and has been for both years I was in that particular shop.

rrich · 10-19-2009, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicki

I'm an apprentice carpenter and have personally set off a saw stop once, and was 5 feet away another time it was set off. I got some cool pics!

That's about $200 a pop, today. (Figure blade, brake cartridge, tax and shipping) Tomorrow, it could be anything.

One of the magazines said that the mechanism trips when a miter gage hits the blade. When looking at my miter gage, I can see the possibility of several grand worth of cartridge trips and blade replacements.