TheRecklessOne

As terrible as this is I'm a custom carpenter and I only own 1 hand plane. (My bosch power planer does most of my planing) I'm embarrassed to even tell you guys where I got it...Anyway. I'm also a cheap SOB that doesn't usually buy something unless its used or on clearance.

That being said Woodcraft sent me a 10$ "gift certificate" and they also have the Groz #3 bench plane 9" on sale for 29 bucks.

Is anyone familiar with Groz? I'm guessing they're German by the name. Is this a good buy. Would this be a good plane to start practice with. I want something I don't have to fungle with or bring back from the dead. Any info would be stellar!

goingenoan

Hiya Recklessone.
I haven't tried the Groz product line. I went for broke with the Anant line of handplanes and lost. I spent about $39 for a low angle block plane. After a couple hours of lapping the sole and lapping and sharpening the blade I finally gave up. The milling was so bad that I just couldn't everything square and flat. Now I just keep it around for rough trim carpentry when I don't want to pull out an electric planer to chamfer an edge or some other small job. I guess the moral of the story is unless you have a lot of time and patience for tuning up a cheapo hand plane then you are probably better off buying one the expensive brands (~$150) like Veritas or Lie Neilsen or go to ebay and look for an old Stanley plane. That's my .02 worth. Good luck!

________________________________
Work to live, not live to work!

mpm1696

You got that right Goingenoan;

Don't waste much time with box store cheap tools, look for better Stanley planes on Ebay:

Stanley's best planes, were the pre-war baileys and Bedrocks types between 1887 to late 1930s any post WWII planes like the four squares and handyman were of much lower quality as their predecessors. Other than the Frog difference between the Bedrocks and Baileys, the type 13 Baileys plane is the best plane in it's class. If you can afford an early Bedrock Flat or Round side plane, go ahead and take it, you won't regret it. I know - I have the whole collection.

FYI the best planes manufactured and on the market today in 2008 is the Bedrock type of the early days made by Lie-Nielsen and Lee Valley - Veritas.

If your looking into used, early Stanley planes, look for:

Rosewood handles (not painted),
"keyhole" type lever caps,
"V" type or "Sweethart" logos on the cutting iron,
2 or 3 patent dates stamps behind the frog,
solid cast frogs (no recesses),
3 piece lateral adjusters,
small 1" type brass depth adjuster,
solid cast Y depth adjuster,
no red, yellow or orange paint anywhere on the frog or lever cap,
no "Made in USA" stampings anywhere.
Other than these general factors makes it a rare - one-off -, or a later Stanley model type 15 and up. (types nos, went to 20 of today)

Note that you can get any of those planes with theses characteristics for no more than $20, other than some cleaning and some little fiddling. You can do wonders with a good antique Stanley plane.

If you're looking for just one plane, get a #5 Jack, if you like working with hand tools, you're second choice after that is a #7 Jointer plane. And the 3rd one, is a #4 Smoother.

G.luck

"plane" questions? I've got answers!

Pete

TheRecklessOne

I'm impressed Pete...

If you have some time could you take a look at this deal and tell me what you think?

Thanks again!

two Stanley jack planes:# 5 & 5 C, - eBay (item 370114201867 end time Dec-15-08 19:48:36 PST)

mpm1696

Don't waste much time with box store cheap tools, look for better Stanley planes on Ebay:

Sometimes, we wonder if big name stores seams to just want to sell anything, regardless of it's quality.

thekctermite

I'm like you in that I've been working wood for years and never had good planes, or any planes for that matter. I bought a cheap (new) Stanley #4 and have found it to be poorly made and very difficult to tune.

I followed the advice I was given and got two planes from this gentleman...
www.brasscityrecords.com
He is a great guy and a wealth of knowledge about old tools. He definately likes to talk tools on the phone!

I got a pre-WWII #4 and #5 Stanley, both in great shape, including the original boxes, for around $70 each. They're both awesome planes and work remarkably well.

My favorite however is an ebay find. It is a #3 stanley bailey from around 1910. It is a very versatile little plane and is easier to use than the #4 in my opinion.

A good block plane is a must. Probably the first plane you should have. Either an old stanley or a Lie-Neilsen will do. I have a Lie-Neilsen and really love it.

Do your homework on sharpening. You'll need a jig (I like the Veritas jig) and something abrasive. I used to use a waterstone, but have found that the "scary sharp" method is excellent. You use a piece of granite or 1/2" thick glass with varying grits of wet-dry sandpaper to put an edge on your tools.

Personally, I'd skip the Groz.

thekctermite

Don't worry if the used planes you see look used. You can overhaul them to like new condition (both function and appearance) if you want to.

mpm1696

TheRecklessOne

Those 2 planes seems identical in types other than corrugated soles.

With just pictures, they seam to be of type 18 (1946-1947) post war; black painted beech totes and knobs, cast ring receiver for front knob, raised rib on toe and heel and it looks to me that they have brass depth adjuster (good).

With some lapping of the sole and a thicker, harder cutter blade iron from Hock tools or Lie-Nielsen, they could make good Jack planes.

The blacker one seem to have been painted; all Stanley planes, other then the #40 and 40 1/2 scrub planes, don't have any paint or "japanning" on the sides. So the owner might have something to hide! Like a weld, stay away from broken/re-welded planes

In my opinion, the asking price, is a bit high, for these planes in these conditions. Wait for better Stanley models of older types, even with a broken tote handle, those are easely repareable with Titebond II yellow glue.

Oh, I forgot to say, other affordable plane manufacturers were pretty good Stanley competitors:

Bailey types: in order of plane quality in my opinion
1. - Miller Falls planes - look for black models #14 Jack (very very good planes) their numbering systems equaled their lengths #9 is a 9" smoother like a #4, and #22 is a 22" Jointer like the #7;
2. - Sargent,
3. - Winchester (made by Stanley),
4. - Union,
5. - V&B (Vaughn and Bushnell -manufactueres of Bushnell hammers),
6. - Preston,
7. - Keen Kutters - "KK" planes
others that I may forget or not worth writing about ('Seers')!

Bedrock types
1. - Clifton - if you can afford them,
2. - Keen Kutters - K planes were exactly like Bedrock planes, and and were also very good.

These 2 links, for Jack planes (if you're looking for Jacks) listed now and ending soon, seem to be the best bets; - copy and paste;

1892 antique~STANLEY No. 5 PLANE~RARE BRASS PARTS~EUC~ - eBay (item 310102144862 end time Nov-26-08 20:05:00 PST)

This one looks like it don't have a cutter but is a type 13 (3 dates);
Antique No. 5 Bailey Wooden Plane - eBay (item 350129385572 end time Nov-28-08 16:38:17 PST)

#4 and #5 cutting iron are the same width.

"plane" questions - I got answers!

Pete

mpm1696

Do your homework on sharpening. You'll need a jig (I like the Veritas jig) and something abrasive. I used to use a waterstone, but have found that the "scary sharp" method is excellent. You use a piece of granite or 1/2" thick glass with varying grits of wet-dry sandpaper to put an edge on your tools.

Personally, I'd skip the Groz. [/quote]

You got that right, "Scary Sharp" is the way to go. It'll put an edge on any iron just as good, and even better, than a $500 sharpener. it will shave your "neck"

I use 13" x 13" porcelain tiles and spray glued sand paper sheets from 180 to 800 grit for mirror sharp cutting iron.

Pete

mlightfoot

I would agree, skip the Groz. I purchased a set of 2 and have spent nearly 3 hours sharpening as they were useless out of the box. Now that they are sarp, they wok OK but do not hold an edge.

knotscott

The Groz is likely made in India but I'm not sure. As others have suggested, I'd pass. There are so many decent planes on Ebay and for sale on wwing forum classifieds. Even post-war Bailey type 17 or 18 will likely be better than the Groz.

I've been happy with the old Bailey, better Record, and better Millers Falls planes. Some of the better old Craftsman are actually workable planes too. Usually the inclusion of rosewood or hardwood handles and a frog adjustment screw are indicators of their better quality planes as opposed to the econo planes. A quality old plane in nice shape is likely to run $30-$60, which is still pretty affordable.

Check out Rexmill.com and read his "Bench Plane Type Study" and the Millers Falls study.

This is pre-WWII Bailey with a Sweetheart blade was ~ $20...note the little adjuster screw under the blade adjustment knob:

All of these planes are great users when sharpened:

This Rali is a little ugly but works great and requires very little setup skill and the blades are disposable:

TheRecklessOne

Thanks for your help everybody! Good advice tends to fall on deaf ears like a shotgun love song....but not this time! This pre-war Bailey with Redwood handles is now mine!! I can't wait to get it in!
$50 bucks on eBay by the way...a few dollars more than the Groz and this one's got character.

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knotscott

That's in great shape and was a really good deal. It's older than Type 13 (pre 1930) ...I'll guess Type 11, but could be older. Need more pics! Nice catch!

TheRecklessOne

I'll get more pics ASAP...by the way it is a type 11 No. 5

mpm1696

You got a good deal, Congrats!
Looking at 3 patent dates, behind the frog, you are sure it's a type 11.

Best low cost planes on the market! Probably the best castings methods of the old days. Same as today's high priced competitors.

One tip; Go ahead and get yourself a good Hock Tools or Lie-Nielsen Toolworks high carbon steel cutting iron on it, and you'll have an excellent plane.

Any questions on tuning it, when you get it home? Just ask!

Pete

TheRecklessOne

Hey Pete (or anybody that knows)!!! I need help! I got my Bailey in today and there is a long scratch and minor pitting on the sole. Not to mention it wobbles on its plate diagonally. What next?

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thekctermite

Time to do some lapping. If it wobbles, you've got a job ahead of you, and you got screwed a little. That's a risk of ebay though. The scratch and pitting won't make much difference.

Get a sheet of glass, preferably 3/8" or thicker. I use a chunk of countertop granite. A wood surface is not flat enough. Use some 3M 77 spray adhesive and stick a sheet or two of 180 or 220 wet-dry sandpaper. Add water and get to lapping back and forth (remove the cutting iron) with as big of strokes as the surface and the length of paper will allow...4" strokes will take all day. When your arms feel like they're about ready to fall off, you're about halfway there. It may take a while. Get rid of the wobble with agressive grits. Then go to progressively finer grits, probably to around 600 to get a nice slick finish and to remove the marks from the more agressive paper.

It will help to make some marks on the bottom of the plane to determine the high/low spots where the most material needs to be removed.

Getting that plane dead flat is critical. I hope the wobble isn't too bad. The thing was probably dropped at one time.

If you can't get it, a machine shop can probably mill it flat for you for a small fee.

And by the way, those handles are rosewood, not redwood!

thekctermite

Here's how I've done it...I set this up quickly to illustrate...

Note the granite plate. Glass is cheaper unless you have a friend in the granite biz.
Keep the paper very wet and keep the slurry moving in the water. Wet dry paper isn't free, so you can cut it lengthwise in half before sticking it down.

You can use water to stick the paper down, but it is a lesson in frustration.

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TheRecklessOne

It's not a terrible wobble. How do I explain to a machine shop that I only want enought taken off to end the wobble not a paper thin sole?

TheRecklessOne

Correction

I just checked the plane on my tablesaw top instead of my coffee table and it has no wobble. Imagine that.

Anyway...My best friend owns a motorcycle shop so he's probably never seen an antique Jack Plane in his life, but he has all the machining gear ever needed to flatten stock. I just don't know how to run it so he'll have to. But now that I know I just need to clean the bottom that'll make things easier.

I'll let you know how it goes.